Comments on Brianna's Blog: Oh The Things You CAN'T Do

I stumbled across your blog while looking for ball...

2009-06-05T04:07:29.027-04:00

I stumbled across your blog while looking for ballet classes for frum women.
Browsing through the comments I was shocked to see how many people seemed threatened by brianna's observation that the culture of orthodox Judaism is extremely restricting for women.
First i would like to say that this is subject on which I do not think men are qualified to comment because no matter how hard he might try a man could never understand the experience of a frum woman.
Secondly, I would like to respond to look what a bargain's original comment simply by saying that if Jews were never supposed to follow their dreams then why do we respect Yosef so much? I think its a shame you never became a journalist. Dreams are not selfish - they are simply dreams, aspirations to hone your talents and strengths and use them well. If G-d did not want us to use these talents He would not have given them to us. The challenge of the frum woman is figuring out how to use these talents within the framework of her lifestyle. Unfortunately the orthodox world of today does little to encourage this kind of exploration. I encourage Brianna's push for women to find ways of following there dreams. For every frum girl out there who has been laughed at for some dream or aspiration just remember that Jews haven't changed much since the times of the Chumash . At least you weren't sold into slavery like another great dreamer. (Though I'm sure it crossed the minds of some BY teachers of my own when I told them what I wanted to be when I grew up-NASA wasn't something they could really understand) So basically what I am trying to say is that if you are a frum Jewish woman and you want to do something a little outside the box - go for it- it doesn't make you any less religious. your just paving the way for all the women who will follow after you. If you have the passion you can a find a way to do anything even within the framework of orthodoxy. Personally, I strongly believe that if young women are not allowed to follow their passions they will become apathetic towards everything - especially the lifestyle that told them there was no way they could be themselves. This is when self esteem becomes a huge problem. These girls will go through life knowing that they harbor a secret love for something unacceptable and they will learn to believe that this part of themselves is shameful.

Man of Reason, do you think that simply that simpl...

2009-04-05T18:26:00.000-04:00

Man of Reason, do you think that simply that simply coming here and throwing insults will successfully "expose fraud"? If anything, your approach does the exact opposite. Anyone who reads this will see that Brianna wrote a calm, reasoned post and that you then launched into ad hominem attacks.

I am not into bringing people closer and I don't d...

2009-03-23T09:06:00.000-04:00

I am not into bringing people closer and I don't do any sort of kiruv. as you can see it is not what Im cut out for.

But when I see narishkeiten of the kind i see here i know that whoever is spouting them needs to be brought down many notches so she stops fooling herself (and perhaps some confused teens who read this).

And at the end of the day I would prefer that Brianna just fades away and disappears instead of spending her time justifying a wrong decision in such a transparent way. I dont need her back and neither does Judaism. she is just one more girl out there who wants an easy time and she is so self centered that she would have contributed little to the klal anyway despite her delusions of grandeur.

Weve gotten bigger and while every neshama is precious, there are some we must lose simply because this is not an ideal world. I am not her father and it isnt my job to bring her back. But it is my job to expose fraud when i see it and in my real life activism it is my job to help Jews.

And some of the Jews I help are former Briannas who thought they were bigger than Torah and the community until that tragedy struck and then they came running into my office and yes, my home, crying for a help and a place to rest.

Man of reason, I am completely disgusted by your p...

2009-03-22T22:52:00.000-04:00

Man of reason, I am completely disgusted by your posts. Do you honestly believe that you can be Mikarev someone by insulting them? If you do, you are severely mistaken and I am scared to imagine how many people you have pushed away while trying to bring them closer. Your posts are not bringing Brianna closer to Yiddishkeit. In fact, I'd venture to guess that they are giving her a good laugh and making her very happy that her decision in life distances her from people like you.
p.s. you are not being forced to read this blog so if you really can't stand Brianna, please spend your time elsewhere. (Brianna might disagree with me as you discontinuing your posts will take away from her entertainment)

and you impoverished your life and the lives of th...

2009-03-22T08:14:00.000-04:00

and you impoverished your life and the lives of those who (physically) gave you your life.

you are a little ungrateful kid who will come back running to mommy sure enough.

oh and btw when I was younger and faster i volunteered for my local community patrol so that is why I don't sugarcoat when I see someone doing wrong and making excuses. I just tell them like it is which is that they're going to the gehennom that they're making for themselves.

in your case i know all too well where you will end up and in my patrol days i knew where the kids i dealt with, not just the robbers and hooligans from outside our world but including some otd and a couple with double lives would end up too. In jail. Permanently brain damaged and paralyzed. DEAD.

you're not headed there but you'll sure find out that your easy way out and pseudointellectual excuses won't lead you to a good end.

I dont volunteer to help "off the derech" kids or ...

2009-03-22T08:05:00.000-04:00

I dont volunteer to help "off the derech" kids or adults.

I volunteer for a chessed organization that helps people with pressing financial, medical and social problems.

And some of those who show up on the door of the place where my wife and I volunteer are those who were or are no longer practicing. But they know where to go for help and we help them even though I often do it through clenched teeth when I see how they messed themselves up after a million warnings and chances and are now basically using me and the organization and believe me I dont like to be used but the tzadik who
runs the organization doesnt think consider it being used. He believes that helping is the reason Hashem put him here and I agree.

No, I answer you because I can see through you. You're not sure of yourself or a tenth as smart as you think you are. Others who are more sincere and have real questions or really have done teh work and opted out are the ones I leave to the pros.

As I said in a previous comment: "The reason i sti...

2009-03-17T18:01:00.000-04:00

As I said in a previous comment: "The reason i still talk about frum issues is because I still live in a predominantly frum area - and I have frum friends and family. I don't think about these issues as often as I used to, and that makes it somewhat difficult to post on this blog regularly." Purim is a fact of life when you live in a frum area. It is all around you whether you observe it or not. You can choose to ignore it if you like, but the chaos on the road will force you to acknowledge it.

I smiled when you revealed yourself as one of those people who have an organization that supposedly helps "misguided" folks like me. I bet you sugarcoat your true feelings when you talk to the people you "help". If they knew half your true colors they would run as fast as they could in the opposite direction. Ask yourself if you truly care about these people. In your arrogance, all you care about is whether or not they follow a list of stupid rules.

You know what - I think I know why you spent at least an hour of your time reading and replying to my blog. You can't stand seeing someone actually happy with their choice to go off the derech. It just drives you insane that someone could be genuinely happier as a non frum Jew than as an Orthodox one. And no, I'm not talking about being happy in the hedonistic sense of the word. I mean it in a much fuller and deeper sense. You need the world to be made up of people who are blissfully unaware of what they're missing out on (the "truth" of Judaism), happily frum or troubled people who leave the derech because of their "problems". Well tough - it just doesn't work that way. Are there people who go off the derech because they are troubled? Sure. But some make a measured and mature decision that enriches their lives immeasurably. And that is what happened in my case.

Sorry but when it comes to the second son it says ...

2009-03-16T20:22:00.000-04:00

Sorry but when it comes to the second son it says basically hit him in the teeth because only makos make him come back.

I don't respond to bubbamaises and excuses. Hashem will eventually and you'll be back with your tail between your legs instead of doing what you know you can and should do and admitting your error.

If you really did not care anymore and were done, you wouldn't blog about Purim. Quit trying to justify yourself because it just won't wash.

Bye for now. One day you might just find yourself needing the organization I volunteer for and when you do my wife and I will be there for you like you won't imagine whether we realize who we both are or not.

I haven't deleted you yet. If you reread your prev...

2009-03-15T10:07:00.000-04:00

I haven't deleted you yet. If you reread your previous comment you will see that it is peppered with name calling and personal attacks. If you are really so confident that you are right you will have no trouble replying to the points I have made.

And for your information I and any other normal Je...

2009-03-15T10:03:00.000-04:00

And for your information I and any other normal Jew is not happy when a Muslim or Hindu leaves their faith. Islam is monotheism that somehow became politicized and frozen and it is not 100% clear that even Hinduism is real avoda zara. It also isnt my concern so long as no Jew falls to Hinduism, Islam and another avoda zara called secularism to which you have fallen.

Last time I checked we don't proselytize and it is only fanatic Muslims the whole world worries about. I know many Pakistanis and Bangladeshis and Indian Muslims and Turks who are far more decent and moral than you to put it mildly and I find I have a lot in common with them. We know better than to discuss the Middle East but we actually share a hatred of terror and extremism. You, on the other hand, are but an object of mixed pity and contempt for me.

"If you had been there, you would not have been redeemed". If you go to a seder, reflect on that line. And cry your heart out and come back. Because tochacha is the only language you understand.

Delete me all you want. In real life, you are very...

2009-03-15T09:55:00.000-04:00

Delete me all you want. In real life, you are very sad that you are deleting those like me from your life and you know full well that we would never delete you in kind.

Attacking me personally by calling me things like ...

2009-03-15T08:32:00.000-04:00

Attacking me personally by calling me things like "little girl", "low class shiksa" or "adolescent rebel" is not a valid way to advance your argument. I have not called you any names and would appreciate a measure of civility. That said, I'll reply anyway.

The fact that I didn't just go with the flow and take the path of least resistance by staying frum does not make me less mature. I think that my posts about problems with the frum world have given you the impression that I simply got fed up with those things and decided to leave as a result. In your fantasy, I know in my heart that being frum is the right way to live, but I just like premarital sex and cheeseburgers too much to go back.

That could not be further from the truth. As a young teen there were things that bothered me about the frum community, and that was what drove me to start questioning the premises I was brought up with. However, I did not leave out of anger. I knew that if I did that, I would always question my choice. So I did my research and I came to the conclusion that I don't believe and I really never did. Even in elementary school I was considered a "bad davener". I wouldn't daven unless I was forced to at home because it felt hollow. Going off the derech was a relief - not a source of guilt as it was for some of my friends - because it meant that my mind and my lifestyle finally matched.

Was I once technically an adolescent rebel? Sure. However I am nearly 22 at this point. But a rebel isn't necessarily in the wrong. If I had been brought up Muslim or Hindu my parents and community would think the same thing about me that you do. And you'd think that going off the derech from Islam would be a good thing, would you not? Because Judaism has a monopoly on the truth. Well you should start respecting the fact that not everyone believes that.

My choice is not childish. If I believed, I would use my talents within the guidelines of the system. I would move out of town to some small frum community and live there. But I don't, so there is no point.

The reason I tolerated your previous comment is that I don't think you understood who I am and where I am coming from. There are teens who want to do whatever they want and see going off the derech as an easy way to do that. I know people like that and they are believers who sin. I am of a different variety. You are free to disagree with me - vehemently if you choose. However if you disrespect me again on this blog, I will delete your subsequent comments.

Sorry, little girl (and I can see right through yo...

2009-03-15T05:57:00.000-04:00

Sorry, little girl (and I can see right through you to see that this is all you are).

You can write all the nonsense you want but at the end of the day, you are wrong and you see (in hindsight with perfect 20-20 vision) what you want to see.

You are the second son at the seder, and my answer to you is therefore - had you been there, you would not have been redeemed. You have taken yourself out of klal Yisroel to live the life of a low class shiksa and it is about time someone tells you that so you break down, cry and go right back. I know what kind of a shell you built for yourself, and the nice approach just will not work for you much as we may want it to.

If you were really who you claim to be you would use your talents, real or imaginary, to work within the system or at its margins to make things happen. If you were real, you would have either found a Torah way to a profession or better yet tried to become the female Rav Yaakov Horowitz.

But you want the easy way out. And you justify your wrong and silly and childish choices with anecdotal evidence and bull**** justification.

Unlike the second son, you will be redeemed after you realize hopefully not painfully that you are living a total lie and are really nothing but an adolescent rebel who is trying to justify your rebellion.

Man of Reason,Finally a challenge. First of all, t...

2009-03-14T17:47:00.000-04:00

Man of Reason,

Finally a challenge. First of all, this post was primarily about frum women. Men are far less restricted. Yes, the further you go to the left the more you will see frum female professionals. However in most of the frum world, women are steered away from that. Bais Yaakovs really do give young women a hard time about getting their transcripts to institutions of higher education - unless it's a seminary or Touro of course. And in the shidduch world, being an accomplished woman is considered a negative. A woman who goes to law school has to weigh her ambitions against the fact that her choice will likely make it more difficult to get a shidduch.

However if you'd like to discuss the male side of the equation, I have a few things to say about that too. Yes, there are men who get college degrees. And of those who don't, some become very successful businesspeople. However, they do not garner the same kind of respect that the rabbis do. In heimishe circles, people will come to the businessman or professional for a donation, but there is no real respect. This is especially apparent when it comes to shidduchim. A "working boy" who intends to actually work for a living supporting a family as he should is a second class citizen. Bais Yaakov girls are indoctrinated to want "learning boys" who will live off the work of others for as long as possible. Although male professionals are tolerated in the frum community, it is crystal clear that the choice is not considered ideal.

As for backing up my choice, that does not factor in at all. My choice was made long before I announced it on this blog, and I have not had any misgivings. After going to college, going OTD is the best thing I ever did. The reason i still talk about frum issues is because I still live in a predominantly frum area - and I have frum friends and family. I don't think about these issues as often as I used to, and that makes it somewhat difficult to post on this blog regularly. If you truly are a man of reason, you will think before you post instead of presuming you know what my thoughts and motivations are.

Brianna KNOWS FULL WELL that there are many happy ...

2009-03-13T08:51:00.000-04:00

Brianna KNOWS FULL WELL that there are many happy professionals in the HAREDI world - some take courses while learning, some go to colleges like Touro, others find other ways to get the background they need to enter the professional world while they still remain among the staunchest bnei Torah.

Still others become entrepreneurs who are the ones PAYING those lawyers and accountants. Not everyone can do this even with education but many haredi entrepreneurs are at the very top of the economic heap and indeed are the ones paying those huge law and accounting fees and thereby the ones giving parnosso to professionals from the community.

But she wants to find ways to back up her choice that she knows is incorrect. So, she rambles on, the most ridiculous and hideous proof of the sewer she comes from being
her post against Purim.

You can't fool me, Brianna.

But you don't have to go off the derech in order t...

2009-03-13T01:33:00.000-04:00

But you don't have to go off the derech in order to accomplish that; you can pick a community that leaves those options open. If you don't want to be chareidi, be MO- they have those options.

One of my little sisters wants to be an accountant or a neurologist. The other wants to be a Member of Parliament. My mother hasn't objected to either. Instead, she objected to my lifelong dream of being a teacher, because they don't make enough money, and work too many hours. And she rejected my idea of being a pilot, because her father died in a plane crash. Otherwise, anything goes.....and we're still frum.

Chani, whether this reflects the way frum society ...

2009-03-10T19:41:00.000-04:00

Chani, whether this reflects the way frum society SHOULD be or not is irrelevant. The fact remains that many options in life are cut off for frum girls. To some extent this isn't as true in more modern orthodox communities where women become doctors, lawyers and pretty much whatever they want. Of course there are people with more potential than others. That is true of any population. But I for one intend to raise daughters for whom anything is possible. If they choose to be a housewife, fine. There are women who are very happy with that lifestyle choice. All I ask is that it not be the ONLY option available.

Self-respect, proper self-respect, will prompt som...

2009-03-10T08:28:00.000-04:00

Self-respect, proper self-respect, will prompt someone to be tznius. Not the other way around.

yes I happen to strongly agree actualy. :)

but there are people (and I have met them) who aren't good at much of anything other than athletics. . . what about them?

Yoni, you agree too much with bri's perspective fo...

2009-03-09T11:08:00.000-04:00

Yoni, you agree too much with bri's perspective for my taste.

Self-respect, proper self-respect, will prompt someone to be tznius. Not the other way around.

It's a sin not to put your talents to good use. T...

2009-03-09T11:07:00.000-04:00

It's a sin not to put your talents to good use. The question only remains: What is "good use"? If it's not matim for you, why do it?

Why is being an Olympic athlete something so great that without that to aim for, you lose individuality?

Bri, in a way, you're 100% right. These things have become societal, and have largely lost their meaning. But ignoring society's expectations, a lot of what you have is still valid. It's not restrictive if you don't see it that way. Let's put it this way: If you have great artistic talent, horrible math and science scores, and can't get more than a 450 on the psychometri, is ruling out becoming a doctor restrictive? No...it's just not what you need to do, and not what you can do. So, too, here.

well yes, of course! the guys are usualy too stupi...

2009-03-05T16:33:00.000-05:00

well yes, of course! the guys are usualy too stupid to evaluate which is better and which is not.

Its more about competing (with each other!) for who can better win the theoretical ideal guy than it is to earn looks from guys. . .

Yoni, when girls dress in an alluring way it's mor...

2009-03-05T07:18:00.000-05:00

Yoni, when girls dress in an alluring way it's more about impressing other girls than it is about guys.

a, there is a big difference between customary tzn...

2009-03-05T06:41:00.000-05:00

a, there is a big difference between customary tzniut rules and dressing like one of those. (and please use lashon noki btw.)

b it makes a girl feel good to dress in that kind of way, and it makes her feel good about herself. Most girls will dissagree with me about why (except one in particular) but this is true, and so girls dress this way to feel good about themselves.

hence when they feel bad about themselves, they're more likely to dress this way.

SELF RESPECT?!?!!!DRESSING LIKE A WHORE SHOWS SELF...

2009-03-04T09:54:00.000-05:00

SELF RESPECT?!?!!!

DRESSING LIKE A WHORE SHOWS SELF RESPECT?!?!?!!!!

and if she can find personal satifaction in someth...

2009-03-03T17:02:00.000-05:00

and if she can find personal satifaction in something other than appearance, then she's more likely to be tznius...

i mean, sometimes i feel like bais yaakov sets up their girls to have issues with tznius by denying them any sort of self respect... and being untznius is an easy way to gain validation.