Orthodox Affilated
Lately I've been thinking about what it means to be Orthodox. My father has made it clear that for him, Orthodox is about practice. Either you keep the Big Three Laws (at the very least) or you don't. However in more secular circles, it seems that the Orthodox affiliation is about much more than ritual practice and belief. It is about culture.
I'm not entirely sure what that means, but it does make sense. After all, for people who do not have much exposure to Orthodoxy, Judaism is mostly about culture. Orthodoxy is simply the more right wing flavor. So in that context it makes sense to interchange practice with affiliation. I'm confusing myself. This requires more thought.
One reason I've been thinking about this is because of my soon to be podcasting debut. I plan on blogging mostly about Orthodox issues. Why? Because when it comes to Judaism I have a very Orthodox outlook. I think left wing Judaism is bull. If you're going to do it at all, do it right in my opinion. I happen not to believe so I don't practice. But on issues such as the Kosher Gym or the recent Rubashkin fiasco I tend to sound like any Orthodox Jew around.
What does this make me? A liar, a hypocrite, a freak? Someone who desperately wants the best of both worlds? All of the above? Or maybe I can just call myself Orthodox affiliated.
posted by brianna @ 8:01 PM
37 Comments:
No offense but you come across as a little dumb. If you don't believe then you should logically take a stance that Orthodox dickheads should better behave as close to secular norms as humanly possible.
Well using foul language doesn't make you come off as particularly intelligent yourself.
I'm not sure that you understand what this post is about.
You hit the nail on the head - I am not particularly intelligent. But if I understood your post correctly, you seem to say that if one believes, then one should act frum completely and totally. And I say that if one believes, then one (being of course mistaken) should still at least act according to secular norms, because they are the norms which go together with true (that is, secular) beliefs.
PS
I don't consider the word dickhead foul because it's accurate in the context. As opposed to loshon hora which is still loshon hora even if it's true, foul language is not foul when it's accurate. Foul language is when an orthodox boy tells an orthodox girl, "I love God a little more because he created you." I'd rather he said, "the ass smells like shit". At least that would be accurate. I am not being facetious.
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I admire Rebetzin Brianna for her stance. If someone doesn't believe or for whatever reason doesn't want to practice, they shouldn't make excuses. Left wing orthodox is no different from conservative and reform. For them it's all about picking and choosing at their own convenience.
There is nothing more foolish then believing every minutia and piece of dogma taught by Rabbis. It shows a total apathy toward critical thought. Why would anyone want to accept thousands of pieces of dogma wholesale. If one is modern orthodox or conservative at least it shows one excercises one's individual judgement before accepting a piece of dogma. Otherwise, what differentiates you from livestock, doing the rest does, doing as you're told?
Of course, there is no such thing as a person who has Emunas Chachamim but then again can also think critically. I mean, that's just impossible! Of course anyone who follows Chachamim must have no brain at all! Following what the Vilna Gaon, Chafetz Chaim, and numerous other Torah leaders is simply ridiculous because I must know better then them all, I mean, I think critically! I think everyone agrees with you, noph angel!
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Yes, how could the Vilna Gaon be wrong. He was never wrong about anything. I mean, he is the authority. He must be right. Well chap, that's not how authority works. You're not right because you're an authority, but you are only an authority if you're right. The Vilna Gaon was wrong about many questions in astronomy and biology and therefore he is not an authority.
I am very interested to hear exactly how the Vilna Gaon "erred" in his biology and astronomy answers.
Look at his pictures of the world in his pirush on chumash.
"But if I understood your post correctly, you seem to say that if one believes, then one should act frum completely and totally."
No, that's not what I said at all. What I said is that according to my father, being Orthodox means keeping the Big Three laws at the very least. There are a lot of believing Jews who don't blindly follow authority. They follow halacha but will not take on the newest chumrah just because some Rabbi in Israel said to.
As for following secular rules, that only applies in the sense of following the law of the place where you live "dinah d'malchusa dina" and all that. If you believe that the Torah is the word of God, does it not make sense to follow that over the rule of man? One problem I have with modern orthodoxy in general (and I did flirt with that for a while by the way) is that modern orthodox Jews don't seem to understand that there are parts of the torah that are diametrically opposed to secular America's mores. I used to wonder how they would adjust if mashiach were to come.
As for your truth vs. foul language juxtaposition, bravo. You win this week's logical fallacy award. The fact that you prefer truth over falsehood has nothing to do with the fact that foul language is both frowned upon in civilized society and discouraged by halacha (nivul peh). You could have used the word "idiot" which would have been both true and more appropriate.
As for your argument with yeshivishwannabe, I must say I am quite amused. Full steam ahead, but you may want to be aware of the fact that she is my 16 year old younger sister.
Thanks for visiting my blog.
Hey, she started it.
I wasn't warning you. She of all people can stand up for herself and always has. I just wanted to make you aware of the age of your opponent. I meant it when I said full steam ahead.
Had I known she was such a young sapling I would have been more dis·creet.
I'm interested in what your response to my answer is, by the way.
I feel outed.
LS"D
Dis is der Admou"r fin Creedmoor! I am sayink 2 tinks:
1) Ven you are sayink you want to remain ortodox asphyxiated, are you maybe wantink to join myne chassidis? We are not karink if you really wears a burkele or not under your shpitzel, what you ess, what you belief, nuttin; we just kares det you sign up far der velfare, sektzen acht, SSI, medikaid, medikar, disabled gelt, end efter de 9 days we heve a new Pell grent skem comink up.
2) Noph Angel son of Georgiel iz one of inzere! Er iz geven der jenitor at Creedmoor a mol tzurik, but den dey fired him end made him a patient! Angel his real name; he swim to Long Ilent all de vay fun Guatemale. D-head, det'z kuz he iz gelous of de ones like us ver lebt in D-ward, so he kalls it D--kward and all fin inz d--kheads!
Noph was diagnozed from havink der intellektuel age from acht yohr alt, so he iz way under your shvester's a level. He's also way under fin sea level kuz he sink somewhere when he swim tzi Americhke fin Gvatemale!
Brianna -
Good point. But those orthodox dudes follow enough stupid chumras even without that, like wiping themselves with their left hand and clipping their nail in a specific order.
What you said about dina demalchusa dina: you totally missed my point. But that's not important. What I meant to say was that a secular person like yourself should not take the Orthodox viewpoint for universal. That by the way is a sign that, contrary to your opinion, you really are a teen at risk: at risk of not being proud of the secular world view.
Modern Orthodoxs have a different idea from yours about what the torah is and where it fits with the modern world. According to them, in the modern world, pretending to live in a shtetel results in teens at risk and other forms of hypocrisy.
As for foul language, I guess I am not such a prude as you are.
shygetz -
Lol, you're funny. Try writing for the yated ne'eman.
Noph -
When it comes to religion I don't have an all or nothing attitude. I once dated a guy who believes and always has but tends to violate major rules on a regular basis. That is his struggle and it still continues.
However I think that hybrid belief systems are by definition wrong. You can't have your authentic Judaism and your modernity too. It just doesn't work that way. Perhaps you can in a time when we conveniently can't offer animal sacrifices, stone those who are machalel shabbos or murder Amalaiki children, but the reality is that authentic biblical Judaism does not mesh with many Modern Orthodox Jews' perception and practice of Judaism.
I do not believe in the premise of Judaism so there is no point in my practicing it. However I do believe that if you do want to practice Judaism, there is Orthodoxy and there is imitation Orthodoxy which is far less authentic. Do we have truly authentic Judaism today at all? Probably not. But Orthodoxy is as close as it comes.
Orthodox Jews understand problems such as the fact that their extreme practices tend to drive away their best and brightest young people. However they are willing to take the losses rather than water down their religion. I find that admirable in some respects despite the fact that I am one of those young people.
Re: My prudishness. I assure you that I am not a prude. However I specifically avoid discussing those topics on my blog to keep focus on more intellectual topics. Avoiding foul language does not make a person a prude.
Ahem, I would just have to say that you're wrong. Jk.
But seriously, there is no such thing as authentic judaism. Judaism was practiced differently in different times in different places. For a different version of judaism in ancient times see philo. Modern Orthodoxy is in some general ways similar to the Hellenistic Judaism of Philo.
The orthodox establishment teaches its own version of jewish history to have you think that it is the one and only true version of judaism but that's bs.
according to some scholars it is unclear even in talmudic times how much influence the talmudic rabbis had over the masses. during the renaissance there were communities in italy who approached judaism in a liberal fashion. there were always communities, individuals, and even rabbis, who studied greek (or muslim) philosophy and adopted its concepts to judaism. So there is no single judaism and never was. You speak of biblical judaism but even biblical judaism is not the judaism of the talmud. The presence of different opinions in the talmud itself speaks for heterogeneous nature of judaism in the ancient past.
I think a prude is someone who pretends to be cleaner than HBO. It's a difference of deffinitions. I drink to that! You're still to see the light, Brianna.
LS"D
Lol, you're funny. Try writing for the yated ne'eman.
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The Yated? LOL the Yated is about three levels down from Der Shygetz (the name is a parody of Der Yid and I have a Satmar friend who calls Der Blatt "Der Shygetz" based on my blogger nick). Creedmoor also has a newspaper called Yated Ne'elam - it is available in small, convenient pink, blue, white, beige and green rolls of 1000 sheets each. Try Wal-Mart, Target or youe local supermarket if you want a copy :)!
BS"D (seriously)
Brianna - "imitation Orthodoxy"?
Maybe Conservative ended up being that way or wants to see themselves that way (they claim to be a "halachic movement"), but Reform (Deformed) is "new improved Judaism" as far as they are concerned, and "Judaism lite/McJudaism" as far as real Judaism is concerned. Reconstructionist/Renewal does not count and is just New Age fluff.
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LS"D
I think a prude is someone who pretends to be cleaner than HBO.
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LOL.
Admittedly I live abroad and have lived abroad for most of my adult life (and did not ever own a TV in the US), so my knowledge of HBO is circa 1984 - but I do remember that there was something called Midnight Blue on HBO that was about as clean as a gangsta rap song!
BS"D
Orthodox Jews understand problems such as the fact that their extreme practices tend to drive away their best and brightest young people. However they are willing to take the losses rather than water down their religion. I find that admirable in some respects despite the fact that I am one of those young people.
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But were you really driven away by Orthodox practices, or by frum society and the way it took those practices, turned them into rigid conformist communal social rules that have no absolute basis in halacha, and therefore took the joy out of Yiddishkeit for you?
BS"D
But seriously, there is no such thing as authentic judaism. Judaism was practiced differently in different times in different places.
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Yes, and the Neviim were decrying all sorts of questionable Jewish practices even back then. Meanwhile, there was a core of Jews who did the right thing, and who eventually wrote the right thing down as they debated and codified the details so future generations would know where to turn.
Just because our ancestors did something does not make it right. And at the time of churban bayis, there were all kinds of Jewish splinter groups, some of which are reminiscent of "Jewish Renewal". But that does not make them right; that makes their members baalei aveiro whose example we do not follow (and I would guess a lot of them became the early Xians or just assimilated out).
Two generations ago, it was impossible to keep the mitzvos on the level we can now in the US and any other democracy. Those who tried to keep Torah and mitzvos compromised in ways that they themselves knew were wrong, and they imparted their values, rather than their practices, to their grandchildren, who are found everywhere across the spectrum from MO to yeshivish to Chabad to yes, even, and very much so because of demographic patterns in Williamsburgh, Satmar and its satellites.
And yes, Artscroll history is a crock. If Rabbi Wein is an historian, I am a polar bear.
But so is secular history. At least the Artscroll version imparts the proper value; the secular version is there to justify the anything goes secular philosophy.
You wrote: "I plan on blogging mostly about Orthodox issues. Why? Because when it comes to Judaism I have a very Orthodox outlook. I think left wing Judaism is bull. If you're going to do it at all, do it right in my opinion. I happen not to believe so I don't practice."
I don't think this statement makes sense. If you don't believe, then Orthodoxy isn't meaningful. Period. It's no more or less relevant than the left wing variety, if you don't believe in the whole premise to begin with.
Or perhaps I just didn't comprehend what you were trying to say.
Chazal wrapped Judaism in certain supernatural beliefs. If you reject that wrapping or foundation, you might still think that the rest of Judaism is worthy of perpetuation. That's where non orthodox systems come in handy. They allow you to participate in the good things of Judaism without having to subscribe to the supernatural baggage. If you do believe there's no need to make any changes. What happens when you believe in some dogma but not all?
For example, when you believe in God in general but not in the specifics of all the halachos or not in the specifics of the system? That's where Modern Orthodoxy and Conservadoxy comes in handy.
For example, when you believe in God in general but not in the specifics of all the halachos or not in the specifics of the system? That's where Modern Orthodoxy and Conservadoxy comes in handy.
That's not an accurate description of either MO or C.
Yes it is. Conservatism holds of God but not of literal Torah MiSinai. Modern Orthodox take a lot less literally than the Orthodox. The bottom line is if you need to resort to allegorical interpretation of traditional beliefs then you don't really hold of them.
hey bri. i used to have a blog that you read. Got a new one because I felt i needed some anonimity. But still wanted some feedback. So if you could pop over to my blog...
oops. forgot to leave the site.
Its http://childish-musings.blogspot.com
Well I'm not entirely sure who you are, but I have a pretty good guess. E-mail me sometime. I've been wondering how you were doing.
I recently stuck a pinky in my asshole and came to the conclusion that yidden must vote for mccain and obama.
Maybe, it just makes you a confused young lady ( ceratainly, not entirely your fault), considering the Bais Yacobs school system), that is trying to do her best .
y'know bri, perhaps the saddest thing is that your bais yaakov never really gave you sources or anything.
cause then you'd have known that they were lying to you...
chazal do not say what charedim say that they say.
(did you know that the talmud was once banned for being obscene?)
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