Rebels and Rabbis
Important Update: Yesterday was an amazing victory for me. I got ahold of the guy who runs the maternity home for pregnant girls from frum homes in the mountains. Don't ask how because if I told you I'd have to kill you (just joking but you get the idea). I talked to him for about an hour, but I still don't quite understand every aspect of why he operates under such secrecy. His reasons were:
1. Safety. The sperm donors (I use that term because I can't bear to call them fathers) may be dangerous.
2. Privacy. The girls are blindfolded in the car on the way up. Of course, they are told about this before hand. They don't even tell each other their real names while in the home. The goal is to let these girls go back to their regular lives once they go home. Their parents think that they are in Israel doing chesed work. Even the phones are routed through Israel in order to maintain that facade.
3. Rabbis. Although several gedolei hador both know about and approve of this home, many lesser rabbanim would have a fit if they found out. There are two main reasons for this: a) They feel that by giving these girls a place to go the home is enabling promiscuity and b) The children these girls produce are from Niddas (women who were ritually impure at the time of conception) and therefore spiritually damaged in these Rabbis views. The fact that the babies get adopted by Jewish families, grow up without stigma and end up marrying into regular Jewish families would anger them.
Just thought I'd tell you about this all. Although I can't share too much in such a public forum, you'll definately be made aware of tidbits from future conversations. And by the way, if you ever know of someone who would consider this home as an option, please get in touch with me. My contact information can be found on my profile.
What made me think back to the whole topic of rebels in insular communities was my discovery of this two year old article: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/story/116106p-104758c.html Yup, the one about Frimcha and Elky, two girls with enough courage to leave the lifestyle that was forced down their throats. Frimchy is doing very well for herself at the moment. She's had her jobs, pays her rent, and is now in Israel. She's even considering Nivei, pending scholorship funds. Elky is in Tzofia, an institution for 'disturbed' teen girls.
It amazes me that anyone can break free from a culture that punishes questioning, condemns education and allows only minimal contact with the outside world. But Frimchy managed to, and not only that, she refused to let her upbringing ruin Judaism for her. Sure she made her mistakes and floundered around for a while before getting her bearings. But she came to the realization that just because her sect's twisted form of Judaism didn't work for her that didn't mean that it was all nonsense.
The truth is that any teen who has a brain and isn't afraid to use it will probe, question and challenge the status quo. It's a normal part of growing up. So why do the Rabbis fear it so?
Note: This post will be revised, but right now I'm too frustrated. I wrote a wonderful post that was lost when the power flickered. I tried to reproduce it, but it's just not the same. I'll work on it, though. :(


28 Comments:
Brianna, so is there ANY WAY for that rabbi to get in touch with atime's adoption organization??? You can't imagine what a boost this will be to the dozens of frum couples who cannot have biological children. Loving homes await these babies... they are desperate to get hold of that rabbi... what can I do, please, pretty please, with a cherry on top????
I have, lulei demistafina, a few bones to pick with you, fair maiden.
Regarding this home. Let me say at the outset that I think it's a great idea and I'm glad it exists--if it exists.
I say "if" because a lot of what you claim this rabbi claims is suspicious. I have a hard time believing that these girls agree to go in a car blindfolded by strangers. I have a hard time believing that teenage girls in an emotionally vulnerable state can keep their names a secret, for six to nine months, from the only people in the world who know what they are going through. I have a hard time believing that their parents can be so easily duped into thinking their daughters are in Israel. I have a hard time believing that a man--this rabbi--who works so hard to insure secrecy would give his home and cell number (as you claim in your previous post) to an eighteen-year-old blogger.
Sorry, Sunshine, but I'm not buying.
One thing that rings absolutely true, however, is your remark that the Gedolim would be in favor of something like this, while other "rabbis"--the Ketanim, I call them--are opposed. It is important for people to know that Daas Torah comes only from Gedolim, not your Local Orthodox Rabbi--now matter how "frum" he seems. A lot of what Gedolim say might surprise you--like when Rav Shach zt"l said a few years ago that boys in Israel who were wasting away in yeshiva should go into the army.
Finally, your comment about Satmar being a "twisted form of Judaism" is as narrow-minded and bigoted as anything Satmar itself may have to offer. Not nice, Bri. But more important, not accurate.
I'm glad Frimchy didn't throw it all away. And found that she can be both religious and modern.
Kinda have to agree with Cloojew on this. He forgot to mention phones routed through Israel. The whole thing seems to fit better in a Robert Ludlum novel then in the mountains. Still if it IS real, kol hakovod.
if dese girs wouldnot be staying out so late at night in der pizza places not with fat stomachs they'd be ending up with
tfui
wat a curse to have girls
You go girl!!!! You are doing a good deed by helping these wonderful girls!!
Peace!
Nj from NJ
p.s. I hate when that happens to me too, you write a whole post, and it gets lost! It sucks big time!
Later!!
Um, I would need to investigate it myself before I can believe this info.
I have one word for you: "DUH!" While you were ranting and raving about how horrible it is that this institution is kept secret, these reasons for keeping it so obvious to me (and almost implicit in your ownwords). Could it be that in your rush to condemn charedis you missed the boat?
"Just thought I'd tell you about this all. Although I can't share too much in such a public forum, you'll definately be made aware of tidbits from future conversations."
You find the home and suddenly you're jk rowling?
The children these girls produce are from Niddas (women who were ritually impure at the time of conception) and therefore spiritually damaged in these Rabbis views. The fact that the babies get adopted by Jewish families, grow up without stigma and end up marrying into regular Jewish families would anger them.
I have to ask, Brianna, because this burns me up; is this really true, or are you editorializing?
There are certain classes of people who may not marry among other Jews. The Halacha is very clear about these cases. However, WRT a ben-niddah, there is no such halacha. I'm aware that there is a gemara to the effect that a ben-niddah may have certain "traits," but that should not stop one from marrying such a person.
Of course, this also leads into the hypocrisy regarding all the effort that we put into outreach, but then won't let our children marry the children of those we bring back...
The Wolf
Brianna, You have been
"Tagged". Come to my blog, and list your 10 turn ons and 10 turn offs!
Peace!
NJ from NJ
Brooklynwolf, that's what the guy who runs the home told me. The whole concept of Ben Niddah was news to me. Right now, all I have is his word to go on.
Yes, that happened to me once or twice. Now I always write first in word, with timed backup every five minutes.
Bri, thats wonderful. I feel a whole lot better just knowing such a place exists to help these girls..
Semgirl makes an excellent point. I save my documents every two or three sentences--don't want to lose a precious word!
You can either save the post online or type it on word first (which, by the way, would allow you to SPELLCHECK) before cutting and pasting it onto the blog.
Yes, lulei demistafina, there is a certain stigma attached to the Ben/Bas-Nidah, but as Wolf points out, they are no different from the baalei teshuvah, whom we are supposedly so eager to help.
For the record, there is no halachic distinction to the B-N. It's not anything like a mamzer or somesuch.
Uhh, guh. Tell me, they're taking in underage girls? Tell me, what will happen if Chas Veshalom one of these girls dies in childbirth?
"Ooops. Sorry, Mrs. Goldberg. Your daughter wasn't in Israel doing chesed work, she was actually giving birth in our maternity home. Good luck with your other children!"
Sorry, I'm not buying this thing.
What if the parents notice that their daughter's passport wasn't stamped? What if the girl doesn't lie well enough and her story will sound fishy to her parents? Imagine how furious the parents will be when they'll find out someone kidnapped their daughter for 9 months?
Fishy, very fishy, Brianna.
Does the father have a right to know?
Also there are special rights for underage pregnant girls. I don't know it off hand.. It is something ridiculous that the school nurse can't give tyelenol with out parental consent but can give and demonstrate propper condom use. Crazy world we live in.
I call your bluff.
Bri-I am glad you got in touch with such a place. It is good to know that such a place exists if it is true. It is still painful to believe that a girl would need such a place and that her parents wouldn't love her unconditionally to require such a thing in a frum society.
(Of course these things shouldn't be happening in a frum society to begin with.)
En,
I like you. I do.
But you have, lulei demistafina, the ugliest pic on the blogosphere. What is this a Rohrschach test?
Cloojew-What does my pic look like to you? (just curious).Click on it and see if you guessed right.
P.S. I like you too.
En- You're pic looks like the black and white version of the Japanese flag.
anon-e - You have a great imagination, I like that! ;)
somehow i think the rabbi was relying on this "i don't believe it" additude. sounds like the kind of thing a person might do to make very very certain noone ever finds it.
Brianna,
It sounds like you are a very thoughtful person.
A long time ago, I knew someone fm a frum household that 'went off the derech'. He is a doting father, but hates lawyers & some rabbis b/c of what happened during his divorce. I knew that he liked a lawyer show called the practice because we had discussed the intelligent plots often.
I started off asking him if he liked lawyers. 'Of course not'. I asked him if he liked the show The Practice. 'Of course you know I do'.
So I told him, by way of analogy, so you don't hold it against The Practice because of some (or even many) of the practitioners?
Sounds like this is what you have been trying to work out & that you are fairly successful.
I am a long time BT that has experienced all sorts of turn offs, & disappointments, & even frum 'friends' who turned out to be no more than someone who was seeking to get me to 'practice' the way they do.
Once, push came to shove re: conforming to their ideas, I was treated in a way that was contrary to Torah; even tho they are 'very' frum.
I had to make a tough decision to realize that all of the wonderful chesed they did for me doesn't compensate for the implied
rejection (or treatment) of me (the one that doesn't conform to their ideas)& how really they betrayed me, by many of their actions or inaction.
I've always asked, why is it that in the 'frum' experience, that only Yishmael ben Avraham was judged Baasher hu sham - i.e. judged favorably for where he is holding - rather than what was to be in the future (by n'vuah in that case, or assumption by present day judge- mental types).
For many years I have been 'holding' between right wing yeshivish, & centrist 'modern orthodox' (I need some point of reference - some related facts.
I wear (non-black) hat on Shabbos (you should see my summer hat ;-) ) , but do have TV & do go to a movie & while it has cost me, I can still look in the mirror when I need to shave... at what cost? Consider that I don't fit into one given mold so shidduchim is a mess. I'm still single & not 21 anymore. Among other things the cost is the following scenario: a younger kid (5yrs old) at a friend's Shabbos table, asked in wonder "..you don't have a wife?"
Of course he is too young to know better to remind me of this, & certainly not old enough to realize that a semi-regular guest, who comes alone is not married.
I have come to realize that while there will be those who can fool me once or twice - sometimes I have problems when I get shabbos meal invites that I just don't want to accept, b/c the people are very nice, but there is too little distance between their ears....
Don't get me wrong, here in beautiful downtown Flatbush I NEVER have to stay home alone for shabbos meals. I always have many places to go - & with people who have me over all the time & are not frum-manipulative. Other things as well. Even the family that I was very close with, who turned out to be trying to get me to conform has done tremendous things for me - but base-line non-acceptance if I don't conform to their way & then treating me k'neged halacha when they react to "me-being-me-&-not-them" is just not acceptable.
So, Brianna, take heart. You can make it with your own intellectual integrity intact (vis-a-vis how you relate to HaShem & Halacha) & be yourself. Just realize that sometimes it is easier to look like you conform, while secretly keeping your own counsel.
I heartily suggest Rabbi Zelig Pliskin's latest book "Build your self image & that of others" it is non-preachy, & truly oriented to help others & gives great insights into what human nature is & what really matters.
I would like to make a contribution to Tzofia, is there anyone that can give me information, where should I send it?
Thank you,
Joanne
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